Change the plugs and wires. NGK only

Most common problems can be alleviated with just a tune up

 

Thanks! I'll start there. A buddy thinks it might be losing pressure in the rail, so I'm going to start with checking the fuel filter, too.
Plugs and wires first.
Do I have to go oem on the wires? or ngk? or is ngk oem?
Thanks again!

 

NGK wires were OEM for at least some model years, Denso won the OEM bid other years. They're both great.

2002 4-cyl: NGK #8691 or Denso #671-4246

Worth checking fuel pressure- the cap on the pump can crack, and you lose pressure.

 

The symptoms you described doesn't sound like an ignition system fault to me, more like a mixture/air flow issue. That's not to say it doesn't need plugs and wires, but I would be surprised if that fixed it. And why weren't the plugs replaced when the head gaskets were done?


You bought it a month ago and had the head gaskets replaced between now and then. Why not take it back to the place that did the work? They just had the engine apart and could have left something loose. If it is a shop that did the work I would suspect you have a warranty, no?

 

Thanks. Great help, much appreciated.

Looks like I got a lot to do this weekend. Thanks ya'll. I'll get back with results.

And, ya know, I have no idea about the warranty. These are my local guys, that I've been using for 10 years and they've always treated me right, even done small jobs for free. Inspected cars prepurchase for free, even made space on the lift so I could get it done in an hour.
(i bring them pizza once in a while)
So, if there is a problem and it's their fault, they'll make it right.

 

Did you take it to them yet?

 

it might be fixed

We'll see, but tonight I was unable to recreate the problem. Up till tonight, I can recreate the problem whenever I want to.

This is all I've done so far.

1.Replaced Spark Plugs and Wires with NGK, just recommended OEM, nothing fancy. (Plugs -NGK (6953) BKR5E-11, Wires -NGK (8691) FX58 )
2. Replaced Air Filter
3. Cleaned Throttle Plate with Carb Cleaner
4. Cleaned Idle Air Control Solonoid Valve w/ Carb Cleaner
5. Checked Fuel Filter - Poured completely clean
6. Dumped the entire contents of Windshield Wiper Reservoir down my leg.

I took up and down all the same hills, hit 5000rpm, with AC on, and it didn't seem to bog down up the the stop light. Thought I might have caught a hint of of it, but might have been in my head. We'll see how it pans out over the next couple of days. And that was just once. I tried to mess it up again tomorrow. I hope the fix was really that simple. I ain't counting my chickens yet.

I'm not all that excited to start spraying carb cleaner all over looking for vacuum leaks.

Thanks all for the help. A couple more days should confirm that it just needed a little tuneup.

 

drat

the cat came back..
bogged at the top of the hill again.
fudge

any idea what's next?

 

When I bang it up the hill, say getting up to 4500 rpm, once i get to the sidestreets, come to a light, it starts to choke out

is this the case that it only happens "When you come to a light"? you insinuate it's more, "rpm dependent" but you don't describe any symptoms other than when you 'come to a light'. give some concise mechanical symptoms of the issue.

describe what you're doing at other RPM's/situations when you experience this if it's not only when you come to a stop.
does it do it while accelerating, on the interstate?

does the check engine light come on when it does this?

when you say "when i bang it up a hill" - does that mean it won't exhibit these symptoms if you "don't bang it up the same hill"? or it'll still do it every time you go up that hill?

no noises ever, at all?

 

I haven't taken it in, yet. Was hoping to learn something. Maybe that's what I'll learn.

 

Ok, got it. I'll try to be clearer.

No CEL.
No Noises.
It does not do it on the freeway.

What I mean by RPM dependent is that to get the symptoms to occurs, I must really tax the engine, either a big hill with AC on, or charge up a hill, getting to 4500-5000rpm.
As long as I keep the gas depressed, there is no problem, keeps cruising up hill. Doesn't stall, or bog down.

When I come to a stop after one of these engine taxing events, it doesn't cut out, but when I step on the gas, nothing happens really, till I almost floor it, then it slowly begins to take off.
Once rolling, it seems semi fine, until the next stop sign. Then the exact same thing occurs, step on gas, no movement, don't hear the engine rev increase, no rpm increase, push the pedal through and then it rolls.
If i turn off the car and start it again, no issues.

So, I can induce the condition by taxing the engine. If I do not tax the engine, it does not happen. Taking a hill gently, 4th gear, 3000rpm has not yet created the condition. Yet. I haven taken it up same hills around 3000rpm and condition does not arise.
Once I have taxed the engine, though, it will continue these symptoms until I restart the engine.

I wish I could give more technical/mechanical info, but I'm pretty green. I'm having a blast learning about all this though. I hope I made a little more sense.

You guys are awesome, thank you!

I've got a OBD2 bluetooth plugin on the way. Will probably use Torque.

Thanks again!

 

That's a really good description! well done.

It sounds like almost certainly the idle control mechanism. Which is easy and cheap.

1. first step is to simply clean them out. you can pull a hose and squirt sea foam, brake cleaner, or carb cleaner down there. Takes 15 minutes.

2. if it's really bad you may need to pull the entire thing off and clean it off the vehicle. takes a little longer and i think you'll have to buy a new gasket.

3. it may need replacement. new is quite expensive and they don't really fail often enough to warranty buying a new one. used is fine, again you'll need a new gasket if equipped.

Actually i think i have a used one that fits yours if it's a 4 cylinder. $40 shipped.

If you're paying a mechanic you might just want to jump straight to step number 3 to rule it out rather than having to pay for steps 1, step 2, and step 3. depends on your mechanic too - he might do step 1 for free or he might charge mininum one hour shop time for each step...

your IAC should look something like this - and there's the gasket you'll need:http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...urself-illustrated-guides/65697-2002-2-5l-iac-valve-throttle-body-cleaning.html

 

You can get away with reusing your old gasket on that style that's just a basic oring. Though it would be nice to just replace it while it's apart in case.

 

Interesting. I was suspecting that, too.
I took the IACV off and cleaned pretty well with carb cleaner last weekend. O-Ring looked good.
The Valve was pretty black.
Is there any way to test these and see if they are good?
I may be in the market for that spare valve you've got. Actually, I'll bet I am. How do we go about it?

Could it be a vacuum leak?
Maybe O2?


Thanks!

EDIT: just did poor man's vacuum test, didn't find anything. beginning to strongly suspect o2. Subaru tech on another site says these failed quite a bit on this model and fits the symptoms. seems to fit, since the problem is resolved by restarting, resetting the ecu.

EDITEDED: OBD2 just arrived at the door. Time to go figure out how this works.

 

EDITEDED: OBD2 just arrived at the door. Time to go figure out how this works.

As in a scan tool that reads live scan data? What kind of scanner?

 

:2cents:
PCV valve was changed last? (lots of odd problems,...lead right to that $18 OEM part,...held in place by 2 bolts.)

MAF / and throttle position sensor maybe on your future list.

 

This one. BAFX Products - Bluetooth OBD2 scan tool - For check engine light & diagnostics - Android ONLY
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NLQAHS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Yes, live scan data.
Using Torque Pro on my droid phone.
I don't know what I'm doing, but trying to learn.
Was going to see if anyone had a "best for subie app" recommendation.


I don't know if/when the pcv valve was ever changed. I took it out, looked at it. I may have spray some carb cleaner on it. Shook it, it's rattles. Put it back it.
It the one down on the block, not up on the intake. Guess they changed it this year. None of the parts stores seem to know this, though.
I might just go swap it out. It is cheap.
Any way to test it?

Yeah, MAF and throttle pos sensor have been on the radar.
I thought this year used a MAP?

I have the service manual, but there seems to be some discrepancies. ( i think that might be too big a word for me to spell.)


i'm trying to figure out how to setup the torque pro app to get the info i need. so far, i know my coolant temp sits around 195f totally warmed up and the fans kick on at 203f.

I've got some data on fuel trim, but it's not matching what i saw in videos. long way to go, but thank god for this place and youtube.

ideas?

thanks, pros!

 

I don't know if/when the pcv valve was ever changed. I took it out, looked at it. I may have spray some carb cleaner on it. Shook it, it's rattles. Put it back it.
It the one down on the block, not up on the intake. Guess they changed it this year. None of the parts stores seem to know this, though.
I might just go swap it out. It is cheap.
Any way to test it?

cdc is a pro,...gary does not like to consider himself a pro,...but does fix rebuild cars free for friends and family,...and "gross" profit on rebuilt cars to the general public.

I am just getting older by the minute,...and remember paying for things.

a pcv has a ball bearing and a spring, sometimes it get clogged with oil etc.
However:
...the spring gets metal fatigue over time. it should be on the regular maint schedule somewhere, but it is not.
(and neither is the thermostat,...which has the same spring problem overtime.)
@1 Lucky Texan had a elusive problem like this with his H6 2003,...=replaced the PCV.

 

You are correct, that model year uses a MAP, not MAF.

I am not familiar with Torque Pro but just watched a video about it.
Would you be able to download the 'track recorder' plugin and record a video for us like in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irLUImwkKOc&feature=player_detailpage#t=213

If so is it possible to display the data for RPM's, throttle position, vacuum (MAP sensor), calculated load, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim, AF sensor 1/1, & O2 sensor 1/2

Then drive the car and make the problem happen?

 

That sounds like a great idea.
I am trying to figure out how to get all those gauges to work/show up/read.
Some I've got working, some I don't. Lots of things seems to have a lot of names. I don't know one bank from another.
I was trying to get STFT and couldn't. I got some version of LTFT, so it should be in there.
I will figure it out, and install the addon dash/cam plugin.

I don't know if torque will show all those things, but I'll try.
Good times!
Not being sarcastic, this is pita, but kinda cool, too.

Just wish there was better documentation on how to work this app.
And its compatability w/ subi.

ok, i'll get crackin, and get back at ya'll.

Thanks!

 

Good job trouble shooting, you should be at the bottom of this in no time!

Why are you ruling out the Idle Air Control Valve?
I'm not sure how to test it. They're so easy to clean and swap I've never bothered testing.

And the classic IAC issue happens when the throttle plate closes - that's the distinctive here. This is so predictable - your symptoms so consistent - that i think it will be something mechanical (like IAC) not electrical or pseudo-electrical (like O2).

Also - since it only does it under load - I'm not sure how we would put it under heavy loads while testing.

I see no correlation between O2 sensor and issues when the throttle plate closes. Did he explain that?

Rather than resetting the ECU - might turning it off and then back on simply give it time to not be under so much vacuum/demand (an engine is just a big vaccum pump)? It would be under no-load like normal driving (where there aren't any issues) rather than high load.

 

Why are you ruling out the Idle Air Control Valve?
I'm not sure how to test it. They're so easy to clean and swap I've never bothered testing.

I'd rule out IAC issues because of this...

When I come to a stop after one of these engine taxing events, it doesn't cut out, but when I step on the gas, nothing happens really, till I almost floor it, then it slowly begins to take off.
Once rolling, it seems semi fine, until the next stop sign. Then the exact same thing occurs, step on gas, no movement, don't hear the engine rev increase, no rpm increase, push the pedal through and then it rolls.
If i turn off the car and start it again, no issues.

If all that was happening was a low idle when coming to a stop then I would be looking at the IAC but when he steps on the gas pedal that effectively bypasses the IAC but the issue persists, nothing happens until he floors the pedal. I'd be leaning more towards an air/fuel ratio issue, mechanical issue, or breathing problem.

IAC's can be tricky to test, they are always receiving a varying signal because they are in a constant state of change to keep the idle where it should be so you can't just take a voltage reading and say it good/bad. I've found the best way to test them is with a OEM equipped scan tool that can run IAC tests and command the engine to specific RPMS and see if the IAC can get the engine to that RPM. However not all makes and models of vehicles offer this test. The roller type IAC I will remove the electrical portion of the IAC, if possible, and gently twist the roller valve and see if it is sticking at all.

 

@cdc

I was under the impression that EJ251 and EJ252 engines found in USDM outbacks from 2000-2002 had MAF

MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR for 2002 Subaru Outback|22680AA160

and that the EJ253 found in 2003-2004 outbacks had the MAP

(which I am finding it hard to find a part description by the typical name
"manifold absolute pressure sensor"):|

 

I've never seen a MAF on 2000-2004 2.5L Outback, they are all speed density systems as far as I know.

The Pre-2000 and Post-2004 Outbacks have MAF's.

You profile shows you have a 2002 2.5 outback, does it have a MAF?

 

Now I wonder if mine does,...as it is a NYS car with "california emissions",...and may have the fancier MAP as the ones you see.


just looking at the online parts lists,...I have never had a problem with one on any car ever, including this 2.5 car I have. (I might go out and look for it,...but should really open the H6 hood as it is maint. time).


IACV I have had that on a Ford,...and the issue was dangerously spastic,...car would almost die in the road, to the point that other drivers on the 2 lanes could easily kill you while limping it off on a blind turn. That was not simply dirty,...it was mechanically worn.

 

ok, a vid of the situation with live data

So, maybe the vid will help.
I loaded a bunch of guages based on what I thought they might do, but I'm still pretty clueless ( which i'm sure i don't have to clue you in on.)

https://youtu.be/NwRewFDLHXw

I'm go to go look up have to understand this data. Anybody got a good resource?

I will say, it is harder to get the car to act up since I did all the tune up work.
I had the thing up to just shy of 6000rpm today.
Made me like this car even more. It's a cool engine.

So, what's all y'all's take on the vid? Did I leave stuff out? probably.

can we embed videos here? or just links?

thanks
jon

ps. It seems like my car may be "learning" to drive crappy. Meaning, before, when I turned of the engine, it was always immediately better when I started up, now, that is not always the case. Then it drives so-so, for a couple hours, and by night, seems pretty good again. (i drive a lot)

I can't see a MAF in the regular place. I think it's MAP. 2002 was a funky year, they started moving stuff around, and not all of it seems thoroughly documented.

 

@plain OM @ntippet is a video with with the torque app better then rom raider for forum diagnosis of data?


@ntippet can you confirm that california emissions (North East emissions) EJ251 and EJ252 had a MAF or a MAP?

@Gtr Nja

is that a manual or a automatic?

 

Always log via Romraider if you want to analyze the data later.
Torque for logging is just for reference of basic sensors, plus the sampling rate is far too low.
Romraider has access to manufacturer specific PID's, Torque does not unless you load a custom .xml definition into it.

EJ251 & EJ253 are virtually identical engines, former being MAP latter being MAF.
EJ252 engines seem to have very limited in usage, for Legacy 02/01/1999 production to 05/31/2001 production.

EJ259 is the Cali emissions with the MAF sensor.

 

Always log via Romraider if you want to analyze the data later.
Torque for logging is just for reference of basic sensors, plus the sampling rate is far too low.
Romraider has access to manufacturer specific PID's, Torque does not unless you load a custom .xml definition into it.

I've never used it, but watching the video it looks as though the sampling rate of the Torque app is extremely good. The data is refreshing at what seems like real time. Is that a software trick that they have employed here or is it actually that fast?

 

@ntippet
It's automatic.
I'll look into Romraider.
Thanks!

Does the video tell you anything?


Later......
Whoa. Checked romraider. Seems pretty heavy. Do I need to go there?

 

in the video I kind of here a little "clunk" on occasion when you are on the surface streets, which makes me think you got a strut that is getting limp.

here is some links I posted for another member on starting to use rom raider,...if it comes down to it. Rom Raider is not so bad, you don't need a tactrix dongle,...the dongle you got might just link to a laptop too.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/204874-codes-po151-po131-o2-sensor-related-problems-2005-3-0rn-2.html#post2281306

 

@eagleeye
Cool, thanks for link. I'll be sure to check that out.
The dongle I've got is no dongle. It's a bluetooth plug. Maybe I can it to go wifi.

The clunk might be the strut or the camera stand. I think it gets jostled on turns. or i have a bad strut, too. I don't have a real dash holder for camera, i used a tripod with a phone holder. Feel like I'm in a space ship. It's cool.

 

From what I've read, it refreshes pretty dang fast.

My buddy looked at video and was interested in MAF dropping to 10 when load and rpm went up, banging up the the hill before the exit.

A subie tech said he thinks o2, just by description of problem.

Could be lot's of things? Based on vid, anybody got ideas? or did i not grab the right guages?

thanks!
j

 

Wow. Good ears guys. as for the sound of a clinking whiskey glass, really good ear. can you guess, burbon or rye? just kidding, this ain't New Mexico! you can get in trouble for that in cali.

I'm going to have to try and recreate problem and listen for that sound.
All the clinking and chunking sounds, I suspect are coming from inside. I think the clink itself are all my keys hanging of the chain and hitting the column, but I will double check. I haven't noticed any sounds coming from underneath. I have an old astro van that has a nice kachunk to it, the subie doesn't. it's not as smooth as the wife's solara, but definitely not old truck chunk. no chunk at all, actually. i can't stand cars that do that, but it always seems ok with old trucks. (must of been the farm i worked at when 17)

Tranny fluid was kind of cooked when I bought it. Changed out about a month ago.
Did not check differentials. That is definitely on my list. One dipstick looking for another.
@eagleeye I've got to not be lazy and only look for a software problem/solution when it may be hardware.
thanks for that reminder.

@cdc yeah, i've been trying to find the right gauge for the front o2 sensor. i keep guessing wrong, so many options. there is a wideband and i haven't tried that yet. I will tomorrow. in torque pro i see an option for "O2 Sensor 1 wide-range Voltage." I will try that. i tried all the bank ones already.

my brother sold subies on the east coast and said these years were notorious for their front o2. (now he's an english teacher.) might give that a shot, o2 that is, not english. will try your test first, cdc.

bosch o2 suitable replacement?

can't tell you enough how great you guys are and how thankful i am. this stuff is rad.
thank you

 

@cdc yeah, i've been trying to find the right gauge for the front o2 sensor. i keep guessing wrong, so many options. there is a wideband and i haven't tried that yet. I will tomorrow. in torque pro i see an option for "O2 Sensor 1 wide-range Voltage." I will try that. i tried all the bank ones already.

my brother sold subies on the east coast and said these years were notorious for their front o2. (now he's an english teacher.) might give that a shot, o2 that is, not english. will try your test first, cdc.

bosch o2 suitable replacement?

can't tell you enough how great you guys are and how thankful i am. this stuff is rad.
thank you

I'd would prefer Denso over Bosch.

O2 sensor 1 wide range voltage looks like it is probably the right one. And yes, it is quite common for front O2's to fail on these, there was even a recall on some of them. The front O2 on my 2000 Outback also died right after the head gasket was replaced, I got a P0171 out of it though.

What ever is or is not clunking, your scan data suggests that the front O2 is reporting a false rich condition so it is a good place to start. Unplugging to test may reveal that the problem goes away, the only problem with 'unplugging' tests is that it can put the computer into a fail safe mode that might mask the issue, so you might end up with a situation where you are unsure if unplugging the sensor made the problem go away, or was it the fail safe mode that made the problem go away? Probably worth a try anyway, its quick and free.